This is an ongoing conversation I'm having with a person on myspace...Please pray for me as I attempt to show this person from God's word, that God is SOVEREIGN...over all. His words are in block letters, mine are in italics.
As far as the sovereignty of God, what do you answer to Romans 8:28?
Romans 8:28... a verse that's been taken out of context to "prove" more incorrect things than just about any other verse in the Bible... :)
Romans 8:28 begins with the word "and", which is a conjunction. That means it's connected to the verse before, which also begins with a conjuction. These scriptures are Paul referring to praying in the Spirit and allowing the Holy Spirit to intercede through us.
I'm pretty sure that the apostle Paul never meant for millions of Christians to snatch this verse 28 out of context and quote it like it is, especially when it begins with the word "and". Paul was not referring to cancer, diabetes, hurricanes, murder, and adultery in these verses. Why is it that the Bible is about the only source of information that people quote things from and start a sentence with the word "and". It's not even proper and it's obvious that people aren't getting the whole message when that's done. The reference numbers weren't put in the passages by Paul. :) I'm sure you knew that though.
If there's a 45 year old mother of an unsaved 15 year old son.. The son dies in a car accident without Jesus. How does that "work together for the good" of him or His mother who loves God? The truth is, it doesn't.
What about an 8 year old girl who loves God, yet her unsaved mother dies of cancer or her unsaved father gets shot in the head and killed.. How does that "work together for the good" of the girl, the mother, or the father? The truth is, it doesn't.
ALL things do NOT always and literally work together for the good. If everything that takes place on this earth is God's will, then we should get prepared for cancer, heart problems, tsunamis, divorce, and calamity in heaven.. because God's will is that things be done on this earth as they are in heaven. Jesus even prayed that way.
If God's will automatically comes to pass in our lives, then why ever mention God's will? If there's no such thing as going against the will of God, then why even discuss the "will of God" if everything is His will? The word "will" literally means desire/want/plan. Things happen every day all around the world that go completely contrary to God's desire and plan for our lives. How could God tell us to do something if no matter what we do we're automatically doing what He wants us to do?
Make any sense?
Thanks for your time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Hi xxxxxx,
Body: o.k. I'm gonna answer you by posting the passages before the 28th verse and explaining what I see in them...
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I understand this verse to say that, sometimes when we pray, we dont really know what would be best for us or a particular situation that we might be praying about, but God knows what we need and He knows what we want, and what we want may not be what is good for us, so the spirit intercedes for us in that he askes the Father to give us what we need, maybe instead of what we want.
Case in point: I have a 22 year old son who is in jail...I dont want him to be in jail. I pray and pray, but he is still in jail. Lots of times instead of praying, I cry. God knows my heart, He knows I want my boy back home, but I have come to realize that if he gets out he may go back to the drugs that put him in jail in the first place. I think maybe God has him there to get him to where He wants him to be (spiritually). I have realized that he will be released, in God's time, not mine. Actually, I think that my prayers have changed something...that something being me!
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Well, I answered this one above. Except the part that says "the saints". I believe that I am a saint. A child of God. The spirit does not make intercession for those who are going to hell, and I think we agree, there are people going to hell, dont we?
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
This means that, well "all things" work together for good. ALL meaning, everything...good, bad, indifferent. Like my son going to jail. I'm really sad that he is in jail, but I know that his situation is one of those "all things". I don't understand how Chad going to jail could be good for me, but then again, I see through a glass darkly.
( 1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. )
God see's the big picture, I only see this little part of my life. God is working everything out in my life because I have been called ( according to His purpose) I love Him ONLY because He first loved me!
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
He knew me before the foundation of the world. He predestinated me to be changed to the image of His dear Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus is a true Son, we are adopted son's, there are many "brothers" or born again believers.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The ones who were ordained to eternal life,
(Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were called to eternal life believed.) He called me, just like Lazarus, from the grave.
Eph 2:1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
He justified (justification is God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous before God. ) He also glorified (glorification deals with the elect becoming perfect.)
Rom 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
The senarios that you wrote about, the 45 year old mother who's son died, you say that thats a thing that "does'nt work together for good". How can you say that? You do not have the mind of Christ. I say that maybe the death of the mother's son might cause the 45 year old mother to search the scriptures and "hear" that we are to rest in Christ. Maybe she could help someone else who might loose a child through it, because , she's been through it, and she is a christian, someone who relies on the Lord. Today people say, "Oh, God would never do anything so cruel as that." However, if such treatment was the essential means necessary to bring this a person to a knowledge of God, then it was a gracious act and not cruel at all. Notice that these "all things" are working together for the good of Them that love God...not them that DON'T love God.
I believe that tsunami's, death, cancer...EVERYTHING is working together for good. If one soul is drawn to the Lord through one of these catrostophes, Praise be to God. And they are... God raised Pharoah up , just to show His power, no other reason.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
As It is appointed unto men once to die. Who's to say when? God knows. We all have an appointment with God and we won't be late. Thats one appointment we won't miss.
Do you think that when a young person dies God is surprised by it? Absolutely NOT. God is in control , of everything.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
God does not need our input. God is'nt waiting on us to make a "decision". God is SOVEREIGN: Sovereign faith is the belief that God is not only omnipotent by ability but also by action. That God is absolutely in control of all as opposed to the belief that although he is powerful, he does not always exercise his power.
Have you have read Arther Pink's book on "The Sovereignty of God." If you have not, then I urge you to do so as soon as possible. I am sure you know that Romans nine is not only in the Bible, but you also know that it clearly teaches that our God is indeed a most sovereign God.I am also assuming that you accept without question that God has "mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden" (Romans 9:18). I did'nt mean to write a book...I hope this makes sense to you. My motto is:
Rom 3:4 (A) yea, let God be true, but every man a liar.
Your sister in Christ!
Glenda, saved by grace!
Ok, we're obviously not going to agree on these things. I knew it wouldn't matter from the start if I explained it.
I don't believe that GOD is the one who "has your son in jail". Religious people believe that "everyone happens for a reason".. Well I believe that too, I just don't believe it's always God's reasons! Satan has an agenda and Satan would rather keep your son bound and wasting his life away in prison. While it may be better that your son stay in jail while he's still got problems that he needs to overcome.. it is God's will that he grow up and have a complete change of heart.. NOW. God is a NOW God. God's timing is always now. It's NOT God's will that your son sit around in jail.
Literally ALL things do not "work together for the good" and that's not what the verse was saying. It really frustrates me to hear people using Paul's words to justify everything from cancer to divorce to the so-called "disease" of homosexuality! People have also done the same thing about Paul's thorn in the flesh.. they use his thorn (which was a messenger sent by Satan) to justify everything they possibly can! Read my blog for more info on that.
I have no reason to argue about this. It would be a waste of my time and yours to continue discussing it. You seen sure that what you believe is right, and I'm not going to sit here and try to persuade you to believe otherwise.
Love In Christ,